Episode #112: Dr. Christiane Wolf
Please note: This podcast is intended to provide information and education and is not intended to provide you with a diagnosis or treatment advice. You should consult with a licensed or registered healthcare professional about your individual condition and circumstance.
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Have you ever tried meditation to help manage chronic pain? After realizing that meditation, mindfulness, and compassion practices are transformational in how we relate to what is happening to us, Dr. Christiane Wolf found a passion in teaching it to others.
She started as a gynecologist, helping women with reproductive health and bringing new life into the world. However, over time, she realized that there was a greater need to help people manage their pain and suffering, which ultimately led her to become an internationally known Mindfulness and Insight Meditation teacher.
Her interest in the powerful connection between the mind and body began with her own practice with meditation, but after completing her Ph.D. in psychosomatic medicine, she started to explore the use of meditation and Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) as a way to help people cope with chronic pain and illness.
We often react to stimuli on autopilot, but through mindfulness, we can learn to respond intentionally, making choices that are aligned with the present moment. She explains that with mindful meditation, such as focusing on the breath, we can choose where to direct our attention, which is a powerful training in itself.
Dr. Wolf is now the lead consultant and teacher trainer for the National Mindfulness Facilitator Training at the US Department of Veteran Affairs and has authored several books, Outsmart Your Pain - Mindfulness and Self-Compassion to Help You Leave Chronic Pain Behind and the training manual for mindfulness teachers, A Clinician’s Guide to Teaching Mindfulness.
Through these books and her teaching, she has helped countless people find relief from chronic pain and illness and is a firm believer that everyone can benefit from the practice of mindfulness, regardless of their background or current struggles.
“The higher the stress the worse symptoms become so learning how to manage stress is non-negotiable”
Reasons to Listen:
Learn what mindfulness and MBSR are and how they can help relieve symptoms of chronic pain and stress
Understand how the connection between chronic pain and mindfulness can help you reclaim some autonomy
Learn why you shouldn’t knock it before you try it
Discover why self-compassion is such an important tool for people who are living with chronic or invisible pain
“When pain is met with kindness and compassion, it somehow becomes more bearable.”
About Dr. Christiane Wolf:
Christiane Wolf, MD, Ph.D., is a former physician, and an internationally known mindfulness and Insight (Vipassana) meditation teacher. She is board certified as an OB/GYN and holds a Ph.D. in psychosomatic medicine from Humboldt University in Berlin, Germany. Dr. Wolf is the lead consultant and teacher trainer for the National Mindfulness Facilitator Training at the US Department of Veteran Affairs. She is the author of “Outsmart Your Pain - Mindfulness and Self-Compassion to Help You Leave Chronic Pain Behind” and the co-author of the classic training manual for mindfulness teachers, “A Clinician’s Guide to Teaching Mindfulness.”
Website: https://www.christianewolf.com/
Connect on Instagram: @christianewolfmindfulness
Support for this episode comes from Credo. Credo was founded in 2015 in San Francisco. Credo currently operates a robust online business, along with 12 stores across the country. The company’s trailblazing brand standard, The Credo Clean Standard, is actively building a cleaner, more sustainable, more ethical beauty industry. Credo’s owned brand portfolio includes Exa Beauty, Follain, and EleVen by Venus Williams SPF. Visit bit.ly/madevisiblecredo to start shopping.
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Harper Spero: [00:00:00] Made visible, helps people with invisible illnesses feel seen and heard. It provides a platform for people who seem fine but aren't to share their experiences. It also helps to create a new awareness of how we can be sensitive and supportive to those with invisible illnesses.
Please note this podcast is intended to provide information and education and is not intended to provide you with a diagnosis or treatment advice. You should consult with a license or registered healthcare professional about your individual condition and circumstance. Hey guys. Welcome to another episode of Made Visible.
I'm your host, Harper Spiro, and I'm so glad you tuned. Today's guest, Christiana Wolf, was on my list to be on the podcast before I was even sure I was bringing back the show. And to be honest with you, halfway through the [00:01:00] recording, I almost considered stopping asking her questions and just letting her speak.
Because I was clinging onto every word she said and just wanted to listen. It was such a reminder of how powerful meditation can be, especially as it relates to chronic pain. I'm so excited for you to listen to this episode. So welcome,
Dr. Christiane Wolf: Christiana. Thank you so much for inviting me. Very excited.
Harper Spero: Absolutely. As I said to you before we started recording, I heard you on Dan Harris's 10% Happier podcast back in 2021, which is when I was taking hiatus from Made Visible, and I remember writing down your name in my spreadsheet that when and if I brought back this show, you were top of mind of someone I wanted to have on the.
So I am thrilled two years later to go, okay, here we are, we're doing this, and the podcast is back, and I got the guest I wanted. Oh,
Dr. Christiane Wolf: thank you so much. Uh, that's really touching. Thank [00:02:00] you.
Harper Spero: Of course. So let's start. Tell us who you are, where you're from, and what you do. I live
Dr. Christiane Wolf: in Los Angeles and have lived here for the last 20 years, which is really quite incredible given that I'm not from Los Angeles and I had never intended to live in Los Angeles, , nor in the US for that matter.
So I'm, I'm originally from Germany and I lived in Berlin for a long time. I went to medical school there and then worked at the university hospital there and thought I would be doing that for my career, whatever we think. when we're like in our like late twenties about what happens in life. Right. And then, yeah, we moved to Los Angeles allegedly just for one year, and it turned into another year and another year.
And I actually, or we never went back to living in Germany and I changed my profession from being a, I was a [00:03:00] gynecologist, so that was my training. Uh, gynecological oncologist actually to being a full-time mindfulness and compassion teacher, and I'm also a Buddhist teacher.
Harper Spero: What a journey you've been on and what's so interesting is it sort of sounds like it fell into your lap to a certain degree.
Dr. Christiane Wolf: Yes and no. It's easy to say that in retrospect, but it was a very long. Deliberating thinking, are we going back? What makes the most sense for our family at that point? And, and compromises. So
Harper Spero: what did end up leading you into leaving behind being a doctor and focusing on mindfulness as your main focus?
Dr. Christiane Wolf: What happened was, so first of all, in the US I was not allowed to work or basically in order for me to work as a physician, I had to do all my exams again, [00:04:00] which I did at some point because I thought I might go back, but then I would have had to do my residency again, which, like anybody in the medical field, no, that's no joke.
and at that point I had, um, first two and then three young children when I was thinking we might stay and should I go back? And I thought like that is so incompatible in a way for how I actually wanted to be there for my children. And then I also, I had a little bit of like, pride of having a really, really good medical education from Germany.
and then having to like do it all again as if it was worth nothing. I had like thing, like I have a part that was not putting up with that too. So that was one side, and then the other side was because I had been meditating, I. Fell into like, or found meditation and, uh, fell into meditation and Buddhism like, uh, when I finished [00:05:00] high school.
So I had a meditation practice and was very engaged in that, was loved that. And then, uh, when I came here, I, uh, started working with my, my heart teacher who, who became my art teacher, Trudy Goodman. And she had just started. Fledgling, teeny tiny little organization that was not much more than the name , and then a handful of people.
And I started practicing with her and she asked me, I should start teaching and I should start teaching for my patients. And I think that's really relevant for our conversation here at Harper. Right. So it was really like your physician. , you're practicing mindfulness or you practice Buddhism and you're not allowed basically to teach this or share that with your patients because it's your religion.
Makes total sense. Right? So I never taught before I came here. And then there was this thing that we didn't even know about that, or I didn't really know about that in Germany, [00:06:00] like called mindfulness-based stress re. . So it's like a program that John Kazin founded like in the um, like 1979 and which was really made for patients, made for anybody who is struggling with anything really.
Um, but also in particular people with chronic pain. So John developed this program originally for our people who really in a lot of pain struggling and who were kind of abandoned by the healthcare. where like anybody, and I'm sure a lot of listeners here can relate to that, where like you hear, hear like a healthcare provider say like, well, you have to learn how to live with that.
Sorry, I, we can't do anything else for you. And back in the day, nobody taught people how to live with that. So it was just like, well, I'm sorry. There's the door. And, and that made a lot of sense to me because I, I knew that the, the practices of meditation, mindfulness, and compassion are so transformational [00:07:00] with how we are relating to what is happening to
Harper Spero: us.
Wow, what a journey you've been on to getting to that point. And I think you bring up a really good point of like the credibility that you built up for yourself in Berlin and the amount of time you put into going through med school and residency and going like, I don't wanna do this again. I'm already legit.
Like, I don't need to like prove myself to anyone. So I love that for you. Um, but I think you bring up a lot of really interesting points here and as someone who has been practicing transcendental meditation for many years on my own, I'm familiar with mindfulness, but I'd be interested for you to share for my listeners what mindfulness is and what MBSR is.
Mindfulness-based stress reduction for those who are not.
Dr. Christiane Wolf: So mindfulness is on one level, it's very like deceptively simple, let's put it that way. So it is really being present with whatever is already happening in [00:08:00] this moment. and people go like, yeah, that's like, okay, I'm, I'm aware I'm sitting in this room.
Like, what's so hard about that? But what we actually, when we start paying attention to that, and then we do that through like what we call mindful meditation. So mindful meditation, so it's like mindfulness of breath meditation. So we choose actually where our attention is. So usually like who's choosing where your attention is?
If you ever thought about. . It's like, yeah, whatever stimuli comes through the door, right? . So I choose where I put my attention, which that in itself is a fabulous training, and the breath is a very common one. It doesn't work for everybody, but for a lot of people, breath actually calming, soothing, nice, and they can feel the breath.
And then you notice the next thing. You notice you're thinking about dinner, or you think about like, oh, I forgot to call so-and-so. So you're not with a breath. And then the more we do this, we start to notice that we're actually really ever in the present moment, [00:09:00] but our mind is either in the past rehashing or in the future re rehearsing and what's happening in the, in the present moment.
We do most of it on autopilot. . So we get, we get dressed in the morning on autopilot, like we drive to the kids to school on autopilot, all of that, right? Unless we have pain, and this is a very interesting thing, so people with chronic pain is they don't have the luxury to be on autopilot for a lot of these things.
So it, I mean, and, and we can see if we wanna talk about chronic pain more, but just so, so mindfulness is like, be really. And because often what we notice when we're not here, we are also, we are reacting to what comes in on autopilot. So we are actually not choosing to do things in a way that it makes sense to what is happening in this moment, but based on how we have responded or reacted [00:10:00] in the situation.
Harper Spero: It's so
Dr. Christiane Wolf: powerful. It's really powerful. And then people often go like, oh my God, I'm not living my life because I'm missing. I'm never here. Like, I'm always like in the past, in the future, and I'm missing what's actually right in front of me, which often is right. Some moments are painful, no question about that.
But a lot of moments are wonderful, beautiful,
Harper Spero: and we miss. I've been practicing yoga with the same teacher for the last few months, and every time we go through some poses that are a little bit more complicated, she'll have us stand in Tiana Mountain Pose and she'll say, new moment. Leave the past in the past, in the future.
In the future. And every single time she says it, for months of going to this class, it brings me such peace with, forget about not being able to do that pose, quote unquote properly. Just be here now. [00:11:00] And remember that whatever happened, whatever can happen is what it is and just be here. And I think that that's such a good reminder and it's so relevant.
You know, you mentioned chronic pain and we'll get into that further, but I wanna go back a little bit and understand. What were those steps that you took once you realized that this was something that you were going to teach and you wanted to teach? It wasn't just something where you had your own practice and you loved it and it helped you and ground you.
How did you decide that? It was like, yes, I am gonna do this and pursue this.
Dr. Christiane Wolf: Of course, just like with everything that we're doing is we wanna like, like really have experienced it for ourselves, for like really a good stretch of time ourselves because like I would not take whatever skating lessons from somebody who has been skating for two months.
Right. or piano lessons, it's just like, I want somebody who actually knows what they're doing. Yeah. [00:12:00] So that's really important. So we've like, we have our own practice. We know how hard it is. We know about, we call that the monkey mind. That is just like jumping from thought to, thought to thought. and, um, how to deal with that.
And it's hard. It's hard. And so for me then, so, um, because I had basically at that point, so when, when Trudy suggested, she said like, why don't you train in M B S R, mindfulness-based stress reduction. I had already practiced for 10 years. meditation, like definitely not perfectly whatever, but I like on and off.
And um, then I actually then took a training program to become a mindfulness-based stress reduction teacher. And usually, and for me, just. , because I had all this experience. I didn't even take a class first in M B S R, so I kind of signed up for something that I didn't exactly know what it was, and I would really not recommend anybody doing that.
And now the training programs actually don't [00:13:00] allow people to do that, right? It's like, oh, you're training for something, you don't ha, you haven't done that before. So it's kind of like slap your forehead moment, right? But in a way, because all the. In the MBSR class, I had been practicing for a decade, so that was not new.
It was just like the way, uh, it was put together. And then the MBS R class is really, um, it's still kind of the gold standard for mindfulness, and it's the most intense. Because it's eight weeks, two and a half hours every week where the group meets, and then a full practice day, um, around class six or week six or seven.
And then people are asked, so that already sounds like a lot. And then people are asked to actually practice a meditation, a guided meditation for 30 to 45 minutes. . And that's a big ask. A really big ask. Yeah. So I know you practiced tm, and TM also has a big time commitment, so [00:14:00] that's usually like twice 20 minutes.
Yeah. And, but a lot of people, and especially, I mean, when, when John Kazin started this there, there was no internet. We like, we had cassette tapes. So like you would have this thing and that is what you would be practicing. And now people have all the meditation apps and there's Calm and Headspace and Inside Timer, which are all wonderful, but it's all like, people go like, oh, can't I do this in 10 minutes?
How about five minutes? Yeah. And so this is a struggle, which I think is like very apropo to where we are in our times, like we want it quicker and more efficient and. There's more pressure, which I think is part of the general problem of where we are in society and often personally. Do
Harper Spero: you think that because of the apps and people's attention span, it's diluting the experience of learning to be with yourself?
Dr. Christiane Wolf: Yes. [00:15:00] The thing is, so what I'm seeing is, and, and again, like a lot of the apps they're doing really, they're really great. People love them and they're really useful, but what they're, what we're losing a little bit is two things, is these practices were not originally taught for feeling a little bit better.
They were not taught as a quick fix. or as a mini moment of like relaxation, so then that I can push myself even harder. They were not taught for sleeping better, although that's a very common side effect. And there were actually, there were no guided meditations. There were practice instructions, and then you would go and sit in silence and practice.
And it feels a little bit like, it's almost like a kind of an entertainment with some of the guided meditations you listen to nice soothing voice with a nice right vocalization. And a [00:16:00] lot of people love having a little bit music in the background and they're never really quiet. And often in my experience working with people is like, quiet is scary.
Silence is scary because then I might get in touch with what's really here, what's really calling for my attention. Yeah, so it's a, it's a little bit a double edge sword I think. Yeah,
Harper Spero: I think it's interesting because the internet and apps and social media make it more accessible for people, but it definitely is a different experience than I think it was intended for.
And yeah, I, I, I personally, as someone who's practiced TM for years, I always say I'm just happy that more people are meditating, whatever the method is that works
Dr. Christiane Wolf: for. Yes, absolutely. And then this whole thing about like liberation or freedom or enlightenment, whatever that is. Yes. And all these things [00:17:00] like, that's like not everybody's cup of tea.
And a lot of people they just say like, but I actually, it helps me fall asleep easier. Or it helps me to like decompress a little bit at the end of the day. Perfect. Just go for it. Go for it. It's just like that we're now kind of throwing it all into the same basket and call everything me. And so say, oh, let's just be a little bit dis more discerning about what we are doing, why we're doing it, and how we're doing it.
Harper Spero: Yeah. I'm with you completely on that, and I really appreciate your point of doing the training and you going through the experience yourself as a meditator for years before teaching it, because I think because of the internet, The pros of it is that you can be out there who, whoever you wanna be, and create a brand and business for yourself, and it empowers people a lot, but at the same time, it allows people with zero training to represent themselves however they want to.
And it may not be [00:18:00] professional.
Dr. Christiane Wolf: But that is in every field now it feels, or in most fields. Yeah. So that people can hang out a shingle, like with like very little or no training and then it's up to the, basically the consumer to do their homework.
Harper Spero: Yeah, absolutely. So let's get into the chronic pain side of things because that is super relevant to this community.
Listen. , your most recent book that you released is Outsmart Your Pain, mindfulness and Self-Compassion to Help You Leave Chronic Pain Behind. So at what point did you make the connection between chronic pain and mindfulness and what experiences helped you reveal the connection?
Dr. Christiane Wolf: You know, for me, because I am a physician, it was always like right in my face of.
Yeah. And again, just in the beginning, so when I was working like in with cancer patients, it's, I couldn't teach it, but I could just be with them in a different way. And I noticed that made a big [00:19:00] difference compared to some of my colleagues that got really uneasy. In particular, like with more advanced cancer stages, where we would say like, maybe we don't wanna push anymore with like these really aggressive high side effect, um, medications.
And then how to be like, be the person who conveys that to a patient and to the family. Right? It's really hard and so I found the practices really helpful for me to. not check out or not get all busy or all into Right. Because as physicians or Western trained physicians we're so trained in a fixing mode.
Yeah. And people come to us because they want their problems fixed. So then, and then when I started teaching MB s r, like I, very quickly, I think after like a first year or so, I started saying like, I wanna really do like a subgroup for people who have chronic stuff going on. [00:20:00] Because what I noticed is, so usually the way that MBSR is taught is it's for all come.
so people like who wanna learn mindfulness can come. And then what I've found is, which again, like it's the, the point or the thinking behind that is, is we all struggle, we all suffer, and we all try really hard to not have anybody see that. . Yeah. So, and then as like a group comes together is feels safe, shares more people go like, oh my God, she has that going on.
I had no idea. Which is really interesting around like, like the invisible suffering. And then when we can experience that, that makes us feel so much more connected and a lot alive and something happens to our suffering if we know we're not the only. . Like there's something very miraculous that can happen there.
But I found also often that I had classes where there was just like, [00:21:00] let's say like garden variety stress. Yes. So like I have a stressful job and I have kids, right. But there's like n that kind of stress. And then there were people who were really like up to their neck in, in. or like really like something going on, like advanced cancer something or, right.
And, and they didn't feel, I, people said like, oh, I don't feel comfortable sharing. I don't wanna put that on. Other people. They can't relate. Or then they just feel sorry for me. And so I thought, oh, okay, so what we need is we actually need to have a group where everybody says like, yeah. . Me too. I have that too.
We can be completely honest and learn the practices and just reclaim really some autonomy. Right? Because it's often with patients and like I'm sure you have like tons of experience and hear that all the time. It's like it's really frustrating to feel you give your power over to the healthcare provider and then they're [00:22:00] not able to fix it.
Yeah. And so really to, to reclaim that and say like, oh, there's actually something really important that only I can do for myself. Right. You can't meditate for me. You can't be mindful for me. You can't be, I mean, like you can be, have compassion for me, but if I'm not self-compassionate, then I might not even be able to
Harper Spero: take that in.
What's so interesting about having this conversation with you is I am. So present to you that I'm forgetting that I have to be an interviewer and come up with questions. So I just wanna listen to you. Cause it's really, it's, it's such a reminder of the value of mindfulness and being with yourself, and I love this concept of.
Yes, you do assume that your doctor's gonna take your pain away, your doctor's gonna solve your problems, but there are things that you have control over, and that's how you. [00:23:00] You allow your mind and your body to work. Yes. And using a tool like mindfulness, you have the ability to take care of yourself and nurture yourself.
And I think it's something that is so powerful that so many people don't know is accessible to them or don't think they can do it, or can't find the time in their day. So what do you say to those people that are maybe questioning it and doubting that it's for.
Dr. Christiane Wolf: Sometimes, so this is might be like I have a, I sometimes I like to provoke people and so I hope people don't take it the wrong way here or take it with a grain of salt depending on their circumstances.
But sometimes like people would come to me, they really upset and they're really stressed and they're really need something and they say, I don't have time to meditate for half an hour a day. And I said, oh, okay. That's fair. You. , this is your life, so you make that choice. But then I said, but if you knew that this time could actually cure you, would you find the time?[00:24:00]
and they go like, yeah, of course I would. I go like, okay. Right. Because in the end it's about not always, and I want to say, just wanna be very clear is like, I like that sounds very privileged, what I'm saying. Yeah. So this is not true for everybody. I'm thinking like, like single mom working three jobs, like yeah, you don't like have three young whatever.
You don't have time, half an hour, meditate, totally get it. But for a lot of people it's about prioritizing. and prioritizing in a way is just like, what do you do? What else do you do in your life? And we actually, we talk about that at the beginning of the class. It's just like, because we have a tendency, and I definitely, I had see that in myself.
It feels like, oh, I can still squeeze that in, so I'm squeezing in more and more stuff. Instead of just saying like, like this idea, if I say, if I say yes to everything, my yes is meaningless. . Yeah. So it means that if something's really important to [00:25:00] me, I need to say no to something else. And that sometimes sucks, right?
Because I don't wanna say no to that. And so, and I think it's a, it's a really good reflection and sometimes people say like, I'm not ready, or I'm not willing to do that. But then what I often hear is that people that come to the class, and in particular to classes where it's, it's about chronic illness is we call that they have the gift of desperation.
They often will say, I've tried everything. What I know is when the higher my stress levels in any area of my life, the worse my symptoms are. So this is like learning some form how to manage my stress is not an, is not negotiable. So I'll find the time. I'll make the time for that.
Harper Spero: It's so powerful that bring, that brought tears to my eyes, truly because I think we're so caught up.
In our day to day and trying to get through, you [00:26:00] know, our lives, all the complications of the world and our, our personal lives, our our careers, and then having these underlying conditions and constantly being diagnosed with new symptoms or not diagnosed, and no one knows what to do with you. It's just a lot of complexities related to living with an invisible or chronic illness.
So I'm curious. What kind of response are you hearing from students of yours, especially those who were skeptical once they've gone through your course and learned mindfulness for themselves?
Dr. Christiane Wolf: First of all, often they say, wow, I had no idea how much my mind or my thinking and my, my thinking is not helpful on how I feel in this moment.
So that's, that's, that's one really big one because people start to notice is so typical situation, and I know every, [00:27:00] anybody with an like a chronic condition knows that you're doing fine and then suddenly like you feel a little something. Yeah. You wake up in the morning and you go like, oh shoot. or here we go again.
And then what happens is, and this is the interesting thing about the brain, is because, so your brain tries to protect you. That's its brain, the brain's job, or one of the brain's main job. And so it tries to detect more and more what is painful, hard, and stressful for you, and tries to detect that sooner and sooner.
So let's say, I don't know, you have i b s, and so you're kind of okay. And then you start to have a little tweak in your stomach where like any person who has not i b s will go, oh, that's, that's interesting. Or wouldn't even pay attention to it. Just like, yeah, whatever. Move on with their day. So, The person who has history of I B s immediately has like this [00:28:00] load of like, oh my God, the last time this happened.
This is, I can't ha have this happen. Oh my God, this is so scary. What am I gonna do? And then, so the past kind of crashes on top of this little symptom in the moment, like a tunnel of bricks. Why is it going on? Why is it still like the medication isn't worth like all of that? And then, oh my God, can I what?
How will it be like in an hour tonight, next week at that trip plan? Will I be even able to go to that on that trip? So another ton of bricks on top of how it feels right now. Then people start to see like, oh yeah, my mind's trying to protect me. It wants me to learn from the past and it wants to anticipate the future.
But thank you brain. I love you, but this is not helpful right now. And to the mindfulness practice helps us. So we're not trying to stop thinking, but we become aware. What's the consequence of these thoughts? The [00:29:00] consequence of these thoughts are. The emotions. We feel emotions in the moment. We don't feel them in the past, passes over.
Future isn't here, and when we can just very gently say, thank you. Not now. I know dear brain, you're trying to help, but we're not retelling that story right now. Yeah, we said boundaries and then we, we attend to what is actually here in this. and then that might be, there might be sadness, frustration, and we see is that a, is that an emotion about this moment or a consequence of the story that just came in?
Yeah, and we just see that more clearly. And then when we then go to what, what is the actual physical sensation in that moment? often, of course, not all the time, but often people will say, well, the physical isn't the problem in this moment. The physical was the trigger. Yeah. So the tweak in my gut was that triggered all of [00:30:00] this.
And then of course, the more stressed I am, the more my fight and flight free system is activated. The worst my symptoms. And so it spirals. Yeah. And so mindfulness can be really helpful to just kind of with like clarity and gentleness. We're trying to be very gentle to, to stop that or learn to stop that.
I mean, obviously like it's like not like, uh, we do it once and then we can do that . That's a training. So that is one really important part that people. and to kind of say like, kind of talking to yourself saying, sweetheart, those thoughts are not helpful right now. We're not retelling that story right now.
Yeah. Or we're not worrying about that in this moment. I don't need to worry about that right now as I'm sitting here. And then the other part is, um, learning to be kinder to ourselves in particular, kinder to our. . Yeah. [00:31:00] Because for a lot of us, so a lot of people with like chronic illness, it feels like the body betrayed us, the body.
We need to kind of whip ourselves into functioning or into getting out of bed. And often we have to, yeah, because it's so hard. And, but then to start to notice, how am I talking to myself, right? When the, like, how much am I saying? Like, oh, get over it, or it's not that bad, or, I mean, all these things and just like.
and those are just like not extreme ways to talk ourselves, to talk to ourselves. Like some people say like, oh, I would never say out loud what I say to myself. Yeah. And then I definitely would never say that to a friend who is struggling. And then we go like, wait, you're not, you wouldn't, you talk to yourself in a way that you would not talk to a loved one.
That is something we need to pay attention. Because it is really hard to. I have a chronic [00:32:00] illness really hard. Woo. You are
Harper Spero: really like getting me today,
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Now back to the. So how can you explain why self-compassion, based on exactly what you were talking about, is such an important tool for people who are living with a chronic or invisible illness or chronic pain? Because
Dr. Christiane Wolf: honestly, there's often like, what else are we gonna do? I can't stop it. I can't fix it.
I'm here. I hate it. It's really hard. It's really painful. And then I get all of these projections that like, like be it often being invisible or I have to deal with the remarks of people like, oh, you look fine. or you, you look young and strong and you go like, oh, really? Right? And so that, that's just adding.
And so who will, and then hopefully, and I wish everybody has people in their life who are really [00:34:00] compassionate and available, but not everybody does. Or they might not be there right now to hold your hand and say like, okay, sweetheart. Yeah, but, so we need to do that for our. And I think that's like one of the most important skills we can learn for ourselves.
Especially when things are hard. Yeah. Because, and this is something that's something really, really interesting, which I find so fascinating that, that it's built into our nervous system. So life comes with pain, human life comes with pain, there's no way around it. Yeah. And the Buddha taught like what we are kind of have to deal with.
He calls it old age sickness and death. That's a very inspiring podcast topic. Right? But in the end it's just like, yeah, we all have to deal with that at some point and some of us sooner than others. So, and how are we dealing with that? Usually we try by avoiding and like numbing [00:35:00] and all these things and like.
I don't wanna dis any of our defense mechanisms. Like they're good protections and like really, they probably get us through a lot of stuff and there's more to learn and self-compassion really. So like this, what I wanna say about like, what we have in our nervous system is, so when there's pain and pain is met with kindness and compassion, it is somehow it becomes more bear.
semi becomes more bearable and it becomes more bearable in just like just the kindness instead of the harshness, the harsh internal environment. And then the kindness or the compassion has an element of in it that says, like on one level what you're experiencing is deeply personal. On another level, it's not personal at all.
you experience that because you [00:36:00] have a human body and human bodies experience that. Yeah. And so in the self-compassion practice, there is a part where we are really connecting internally with like, yes, this is what it feels like. Yeah. And you could say like, this is what it feels like for whatever, a woman my age to suffer from really severe i b.
Yeah. So on one level that could be then just you and on another level it's like, oh yeah, like there are like thousands, hundreds of thousands of other women. who also have to learn how to be with that, right? And so when we can sense into that, and it's not at all about, it's like, oh, they have it worse. Or like that kind of thing, which is again, like putting down our own pain, but it's just like, ugh.
Yeah. I'm not the only one. and there is the resonance that we can get into. Like, we all know [00:37:00] this, or like, or most of us have had that experience when we feel very vulnerable or very burdened and we then, I don't know, take up the courage to share with a friend and think that, oh my God, what's she gonna think when I say that?
And she said, oh, you know what, me too, me too. . And then what happens in our body is this huge sense of relief of just like, oh, thank you. Yeah. And again, like your situation hasn't changed at all, and yet something has happened within you that somehow, at least in that moment, made it more bearable or you didn't feel like such an outcast.
Yeah, which is, that is what we know, especially of course with chronic illness, how much the sense of isolation is a huge contributing factor on, on how much we're [00:38:00] struggling. .
Harper Spero: Yeah. I think that my listeners could relate to that. I know I certainly do. So much of starting to share your story and all of a sudden going, wow, someone else gets this.
Yes, they've been through a similar experience. They know what it's like whether you have similar, you know, conditions or not. Uh, I facilitate writing classes for people within invisible illnesses, and it's so powerful. To watch people from all over the world with different conditions come together, write about their experiences, feel really nervous and vulnerable in sharing what they've been through, but then realizing, wow, when I read this aloud, when someone reads what I've written, they get it and they can connect with one another on a completely different level.
And how powerful.
Dr. Christiane Wolf: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Harper Spero: So you offer a course through mindful.org called Working with Payne. What is the goal of this course and who is it for? [00:39:00]
Dr. Christiane Wolf: Yeah, so, um, that's so people are interested. So I do teach classes for chronic pain and serious, like usually a few times during the year.
And if people are interested, they can find that on my website, which is my name. But people will say, oh, there's nothing, because right now actually don't have anything offered. Right at this point there is a pre-recorded class. So that is done through mindful.org and, um, so it's on demand and people can do that at their own time and learn a lot.
Uh, like people who learn well with teacher, with guidance, with guided meditations and walking them through a bunch of the topics. Yeah.
Harper Spero: Amazing. And what role does mindfulness play in your life these days?
Dr. Christiane Wolf: Oh, it's just, it's, it's everywhere. And then I don't wanna like people go like, oh, because you've been practicing so long, you must be like really mindful.
Mindful all the time. It's just like, no, I'm not mindful all the time. I have a brain like [00:40:00] everybody else . So, but it's really what I've found. And this is something, and I, I'm sure you've experienced that too as the more you practice. in a way, the happier you become, or you let just go of some things that would rattle me before and where I go like, okay now.
Yeah, so there's like a deeper ease and peace that's going on that is really independent of what's happening in my life. . Yeah. And those are really, and then coming back to like the promises of the practice, what were the practices originally like made for, for that? Yeah. It can really nice, this is not just me, but see that in a lot of like long-term practitioners and it's really worth sticking with
Harper Spero: that.
I think it's such a reminder that you are a quote unquote normal person as well. Oh no, and I think that so often. Yeah. So [00:41:00] often people think that because you are a teacher of meditation, that you've got it all figured out and you're just like, Always doing it right, whatever right means. And I think that that's really an important thing to factor in because I think it's just assumed like, well, if she's gonna tell me that I should do this twice a day for 20 minutes, she better be doing it.
She and she better be doing it. You know, the best way possible, whatever that means.
Dr. Christiane Wolf: Yeah. But it's really, I like I sometimes we're, or we're joking, say like kind of the practice is kind of our life insurance, so we practice. and then when the proverbial stuff hits the fan, we have it in place. Yeah. Or we start when the going is rough because it's a good motivation.
But this, these practices, mindfulness and compassion practices will help you in any aspect of your life. And coming back to kind of the old age sickness and death [00:42:00] thing, it's, it's not a question of if, but. . And in the meantime, and this is the other thing, I don't wanna have it to be like sound too gloomy.
What actually also happens is when we are more in the present moment, we also notice moments when there is no pain. We notice moments of joy. We notice moments of connections which we like, especially if we have a chronic condition. We're often because we're, the body is so uncomfortable to be in, we kind of check out the body completely or as much as we can, but the price that we're often paying for that is joy also leaves.
And so while it is hard to feel really the sensations of whatever's going on in the body, the promise is when we do this, like the joy will also come back. And often, as I said earlier, if we are learning to, like we [00:43:00] embody, be in our body again and feel the sensations, and I hear that over and over again that people say, oh, it's not as bad as I thought.
because the brain starts to make this independent pain creature that kind of can really lose contact with how, what it is like in this moment. Yeah. So very, very powerful stuff.
Harper Spero: Really powerful. I love that you shared that. What do you want people to know about Invisible?
Dr. Christiane Wolf: I want them to know that there are tools there.
So with like of course that's like what we're talking about, but that mindfulness and self-compassion can bring a lot more ease and joy into their lives or back into their lives. It's a really powerful reclaiming and it also actually empowers us to choose our [00:44:00] battles wisely. And what I mean by that is, so if we're checking in is like we don't have to fight every single battle.
Yeah. So the question of do I need to speak up to that person who just made that stupid remark and to go like, sometimes we do. Yes. And sometimes just like, no, that's not worth my energy. and so we can look at that in all aspects of our lives so that we are really wise with the energy that we have and to that really that we're like a loving advocate for ourself.
Harper Spero: Woo, you got me today. Thank you so, so much for sharing your beautiful wisdom and your teachings. There is a reason that your career p pivoted the way that it did because clearly you were meant to do this work. Really, it's so powerful. Where can people find you and learn more about, uh, mindfulness?
Dr. Christiane Wolf: Thank you.
Yeah, I mean, people can learn about [00:45:00] mindfulness now pretty much anywhere. Everywhere. , um, and they can find me, yeah, easiest way is on my website, so christiana wolf.com. And I'm also quite active on Instagram for those folks who are on Instagram and they can also reach out through Instagram. That's usually the easiest way to get hold of me there if they have more questions or need more guidance.
Amazing.
Harper Spero: Thank you so
Dr. Christiane Wolf: much.
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